2014 Rules Changes And Updates - Owners Opinions

[tate]

All

Here we are having just finished the first full year of our boat being on the market, water, and racing.

My understanding from the National side of things is that several Rule changes are going to be made after the Nationals held in Annapolis this year, but before 2014.

With that in mind and being in the position of an owner that really has no official say, I thought this would be a great time to gather some information from you fellow J70 owners about what if any rules you think need changing.

if every one will submit their collective ideas on this post, I will committ to putting together a comprehensive report for the notiaonal officers and the folks at JBoats, to express our ideas and see if we can at least ensure our ideas as owners are heard.

Let me add that last year before the Key West rules were issued, and after the Fall Brawl rule survey, Jeff Johnstone spend several hours talking about the potential rules ideas the owners had and, at least I think, made fair decisions about the changes.

OK

So please submit your suggestions including the following information:

Name

Hull Number

J70 Class Member ID or not (If you are not a class member Please become one)

your rule change suggestions in separate numbered paragraphs.

I will keep this post going through August 15th at which time I will put all suggestions together in a report, post the report here on the forum and forward the report to Jeff and Al, Chris Howell and Sean O'Keeffe. Also keep in mind that those guys will probably be reading this all the way along.

Finally, here are a few big issues that came out of Key West and some of the other bigger regattas:

1. Should there be a weight limit or not? Or is the current rule fine?

2. SHould professional sailors (ISAF cat 3) be allowed to drive, own boats, sail on boats as crew...?

3. Should owners be allowed to remove the winches?

Well there you go. The more responses the better. Also please remember I have no official role here other than that I am a J70 owner and am very interested in our members having a voice in the rule changes that we will have to sail under.

Tate Russack

Hull #47

J70TRUS1
 

__._,_.___

[tate]

I understand that there was some heated debate about weight limit vs. crew limit early this year around Key West. I'd like to suggest a compromise which may allow everyone to be happy(er). 

The current class rules ARE inherently prejudiced against women, youth or lighter weight guys.
 

A crew of four men at 175-185 each would weigh in at 700-740LBS. Women tend to average closer to 140-150 in sailing and would end up at  560-600LBS. 

The difference in weigh is at least 140LBS and potentially more..

I'd propose to achieve weight parity WITHOUT an across the board weight limit. I suggest NO CHANGE to the current rules for crew limits of 3 or 4 (NO weight restriction), but ADD the possibility of a 5th person WITH a weight restriction for the lighter weight crews.
 

C.3.1

LIMITATIONS ON THE CREW

(a)The crew shall consist of 3 or 4 persons with no weight restriction OR 5 persons whose total weight shall not exceed 740lbs. 

While sailing with five would be a study in crew coordination and the two people "legs out" would still be at a disadvantage because they are lighter, at least this change it would allow for the _possibility_ of all women's teams in the J70 fleet. 

 

Thank you for your consideration.
 

Yours,
Catharine Evans

Hull#199 "Mojito"

[tate]

Are two way traveler brackets allowed on the cockpit wall so you can cleat windward traveler from leeward side?

 

Peter S. McChesney, Vice President
Palmer Staffing Services
Palmer Legal Staffing 
1211 Connecticut Avenue, NW, #302
Washington, DC 20036
202-464-1000, (Fax) 202-464-1001 
www.palmer-staffing.com www.palmerlegalstaffing.com

 

 

 

 

10-4.  They should allow as it makes a 3 person crew a disadvantage in this regard.  No personal traveler catty with 3 crew.

 

Peter S. McChesney, Vice President
Palmer Staffing Services
Palmer Legal Staffing 
1211 Connecticut Avenue, NW, #302
Washington, DC 20036
202-464-1000, (Fax) 202-464-1001 
www.palmer-staffing.com www.palmerlegalstaffing.com

 

 

 

Hi Peter:   Not yet on the brackets, at least not the design I saw from Harken.   That being said, I would like to see an improvement, as the stock design is barely adequate.   I thought the Harken design was a good idea, though I have not tested any design.

There is a rule issue.   And under the rules, the proposed design was not legal.   (Not a close call.)   

This is an issue that merits discussion.  Also,  as a class we have been sliding down the slippery slope of adding expense to the boat...very slowly...bit by bit...but good ideas.  Many suggestions have been adopted.   Some good ideas were adopted by custom and practice, before we changed or clarified rules.  This was understandable and tolerable during year #1, but at this point we need to be an OD class where we have rules and are all on the same page.   

Soon the class membership will take control of the class.   The equipment modification and perhaps other rule changes will be subject to the collective wisdom of the class. 

 

-Sean

[tate]

A few months ago, many of us de facto implemented bungee pole retraction for safety reasons after collisions and close calls with pole "lances" at leeward gates. Is the bungee retraction system discussed on this list serve legal for NAs or not??  Sean?

 

Noel Clinard

#46

 

 

 

Should be a no brainer.  I spent  $10 on shock cord and system is in place.  Did the around the aft brace.  First regatta is helped at a mark rounding.

 

Peter S. McChesney, Vice President
Palmer Staffing Services
Palmer Legal Staffing 
1211 Connecticut Avenue, NW, #302
Washington, DC 20036
202-464-1000, (Fax) 202-464-1001 
www.palmer-staffing.com www.palmerlegalstaffing.com

 

 

 

 

 Retraction system is permitted in the specs.

-Sean

[Justmike]

First let me say thanks to everyone that helped getting the forums functional, while the Yahoo group is a good solution for distro of communication a forum is a considerably better options for topics like these.  Also let's hope this forum stays constructive and doesn't spiral down to the level of SA forums.

 

Here is a reposting of my email about the original questions -

 

Here are my thoughts on these three questions

1. Should there be a weight limit or not? Or is the current rule fine?
**MP** I like the current rule set, but if a weight limit is put in place I think 750 is more appropriate

2. SHould professional sailors (ISAF cat 3) be allowed to drive, own boats, sail on boats as crew...?
**MP** I think owners should drive, beyond that no restrictions on who owns or crews

3. Should owners be allowed to remove the winches?
**MP** If the thought around this is that they are replaced with plates that are equal to the weight of the winches then yes owners should be allowed to remove them if they wish.  Which is something I may ellect to do for light wind regattas

[tate]

Would be nice to have the 5^th as an option if sailing with at least one kid under 10 and say complete crew under 740… would keep our family out there in over 15.

 

 

Best Regards, 
  
Brandon Flack 
 

 

 

 

Why limit crew?  I don’t really understand that rule.  Put a weight limit on it verse a number.

 

Peter S. McChesney, Vice President
Palmer Staffing Services
Palmer Legal Staffing 
1211 Connecticut Avenue, NW, #302
Washington, DC 20036
202-464-1000, (Fax) 202-464-1001 
www.palmer-staffing.com www.palmerlegalstaffing.com

 

 

Brandon, 

Exactly. I don't want to change how other people run THEIR programs, I just want to have the opportunity for everyone to be on an equal playing field.  I'm pointing out that there is something wrong with a class rule which discourages women and families with kids from racing. 

 

You will notice that I did NOT mention anything about changing the 2 person legs out rule. Anyone sailing with 5 is going to STILL be disadvantaged by that. But I see that as reasonable, because it keeps the intent of the rules to primarily be 3-4, which make the traveling programs more affordable and it IS easier for owners not to have a weigh in. 

Only teams who have unavoidable reasons, like all women's crews and families would choose to have 5 because there IS still an inherent disadvantage. 

I just think this rule change would make the class approachable to a much broader audience WITHOUT impacting the way most owners have set up their programs today.
 

Yours,
Cat

Mojito 
USA199. 

 

 

Pete,

 

I think Catherine's point was to keep the no weight limit in effect for 3 or 4 person teams.  Keeping most of us off the scales and discouraging carbo dieting etc.  

 

However she wants the ability to add a 5th for very small teams or people sailing with kids and would be willing to have those few teams who could use 5 get on a scale to prove they were not over the determined 5 person weight limit. 

 

LIMITATIONS ON THE CREW

(a)The crew shall consist of 3 or 4 persons 

with no weight restriction OR 5 persons whose total weight shall not exceed 740lbs.

Best Regards,

 

Brandon Flack

[tate]

I understand some owners are fairing there hulls.  I feel the class rules need to be tightened up before it is to late.  A faired bottom adds a very big cost to the boat.

Kenny

 

-- 
Kenny Kieding
Chandlery Yacht Sales
Cell 805.698.7060
Work 805.965.4538

 

 

Kenny,

 

It seems to me that in regards to fairing hulls that is clearly against the class rules....

 

 

C.7.1 MODIFICATIONS, MAINTENANCE AND REPAIR

(a) Below the waterline, the gelcoat may be lightly abraded to allow for the application of anti-foul paint, for boats that are to be primarily wet-sailed in their home waters. The abrasion of gelcoat shall be the minimum needed to ensure the adhesion of the paint and shall not involve fairing of any sort. If an epoxy barrier coat is applied, then anti-foul paint shall also be applied.

As a class I think we should be strict about that at least for the next several years.

 

Thanks,

Mike Pitt

 

 

Agreed the class rules are very clear, no fairing.  

 

Blane Shea

[bkeane]

Here are my thoughts on the three questions:

 

1. Should there be a weight limit or not? Or is the current rule fine?
I like having no weight limit.  Best of all, it eliminates the burden of weigh-ins prior to regattas which are hated by most.  It is up to each skipper to make a judgement on what team is best for a particular regatta.  Go heavy or light at your own risk.  Our own experience is that you can be competitive on both the heavy and light side of the weight spectrum.  It comes more down to technique.
2. SHould professional sailors (ISAF cat 3) be allowed to drive, own boats, sail on boats as crew...?
One of the reason I like the J70 class is that pro's are able to participate as both drivers and crew.  This makes the J70 class a fantastically competitive and exciting class.  Pro drivers should have at least some ownership connection to the boat they drive.
3. Should owners be allowed to remove the winches?

Yes, owners should definitely be able to remove the winches.  They cause more injuries and bruises than they deliver benefit.   I have already had a crew break a finger when jammed between the winch and someone's body.  Many teams never use the winch systems at all.  To address the issue of removing weight, it has been suggested that teams that don't want the winches can screw them in upside down beneath the deck.  I like this option.

 

Brian Keane

Savasana #96

[Mjohnsson]

Hello everyone.  Wanted to chime in as I am new to the J70 class but not new to competitive one designs with similar rules; in particular the M24 class.

 

1. Should there be a weight limit or not? Or is the current rule fine?
I see there is a variance in opinions both on # of crew and weight limit.  I am a proponent to make the class as accessible as possible for as many crews as possible while maintaining  a competitive class and fair one design rule.  I propose a pure weight limit of 335 lbs / ~740lbs with no crew limit.  Events have shown teams competitive in all wind conditions between 700-740 lbs.  Using weight vs # of crew allows a completive women's, family or junior team to compete with 4 or 5.   In terms of having to weigh in, its part of one design racing.  By definition it would not be one design without such rules...  Instead, let's find ways to make the weigh in process easier?  One option is to have class rules allow for spot checking of crew weight of the top 3-5 teams after racing - no upfront weigh in, honor system with a penalty for being over. 

 

2. Should professional sailors (ISAF cat 3) be allowed to drive, own boats, sail on boats as crew...?
Yes but with some restriction.  The spirit of this class (see emails above about sailing with family and kids etc) is a competitive class where we can compete without carbo/water loss dieting for max weight and hiking like a sand bag and where the top teams are always pros with multi-boat programs.  That said, I suggest we allow 1 cat 3 pro per boat which can mean owner = pro driver.  In the event the owner is a pro, they are responsible for 100% of the costs.  Why?  This allows teams to higher a pro tactician or trimmer etc yet reduces the fully professional crews making the overall class competitive.  By having a pro owner responsible for 100% of the costs (this is an exception to current owner 50% of more), we reduce the scenarios where owners make deals with pros to circumvent the rules and ensure those pros that want to "own" a J70 do in-fact own the J70 and compete on technique as noted.
 

3. Should owners be allowed to remove the winches?

Yes but weight must be compensated for.  We don't use them, not sure if they are needed with cross sheeting banjo technique.

[rbnesbett]

 

Hello everyone.  Wanted to chime in as I am new to the J70 class but not new to competitive one designs with similar rules; in particular the M24 class.

 

1. Should there be a weight limit or not? Or is the current rule fine?

I see there is a variance in opinions both on # of crew and weight limit.  I am a proponent to make the class as accessible as possible for as many crews as possible while maintaining  a competitive class and fair one design rule.  I propose a pure weight limit of 335 lbs / ~740lbs with no crew limit.  Events have shown teams competitive in all wind conditions between 700-740 lbs.  Using weight vs # of crew allows a completive women's, family or junior team to compete with 4 or 5.   In terms of having to weigh in, its part of one design racing.  By definition it would not be one design without such rules...  Instead, let's find ways to make the weigh in process easier?  One option is to have class rules allow for spot checking of crew weight of the top 3-5 teams after racing - no upfront weigh in, honor system with a penalty for being over. 

 

2. Should professional sailors (ISAF cat 3) be allowed to drive, own boats, sail on boats as crew...?

Yes but with some restriction.  The spirit of this class (see emails above about sailing with family and kids etc) is a competitive class where we can compete without carbo/water loss dieting for max weight and hiking like a sand bag and where the top teams are always pros with multi-boat programs.  That said, I suggest we allow 1 cat 3 pro per boat which can mean owner = pro driver.  In the event the owner is a pro, they are responsible for 100% of the costs.  Why?  This allows teams to higher a pro tactician or trimmer etc yet reduces the fully professional crews making the overall class competitive.  By having a pro owner responsible for 100% of the costs (this is an exception to current owner 50% of more), we reduce the scenarios where owners make deals with pros to circumvent the rules and ensure those pros that want to "own" a J70 do in-fact own the J70 and compete on technique as noted.

 

3. Should owners be allowed to remove the winches?

Yes but weight must be compensated for.  We don't use them, not sure if they are needed with cross sheeting banjo technique.

 

These are all great and reasonable suggestions. They also would be easy to police.